Cogent Conversations: Episode 25

The Future of Distributed Work

Welcome to Season 3 of Cogent Conversations, where we’ll be taking a deeper dive into the 2021 Australia & New Zealand Product Teams Report.

This is the second year we’ve published the report, featuring insights from 100 tech companies across Australia and New Zealand, and helping us answer the question we get asked most at Cogent: “how do other people do it?” when it comes to the way product teams best work together.

In this episode Adam Murray, a Product Principal here at Cogent, digs a little deeper into how high performing teams work together. Hear him interview two highly experienced experts on the topic from Cogent about their experience, opinions and recommendations.


BEC COVINGTON
Head of People

MATT SHANKS
Managing Design Principal

“Interestingly, while 100% remote working wasn’t a widely accepted arrangement pre-2020, the majority (76%) of respondents think their company has adapted with ease to a remote working environment.”

Access your own copy of the 2021 Product Teams Report here for more insights and recommendations.  To keep up to date with what is happening with Cogent, including when new episodes of this podcast are released, you can subscribe via email or follow us on Twitter

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Full Episode Transcript

Adam Murray: Welcome to season three of the Cogent Conversations podcast, in which we take a deeper dive into our 2021 Australia and New Zealand Product Teams Report. This is the second year we’ve published the report featuring insights from 100 tech companies across Australia and New Zealand, and helping us answer the question we get asked the most, how do other people do it when it comes to the way product teams work best together? I’m Adam Murray, a principal here at Cogent. And in each episode, I’ll be digging a little deeper into a key theme of the report, getting further insights and recommendations from some of our experts here at Cogent. You can download the free 50 page report by visiting cogent.co/podcastreport. Let’s get into it.

Hello and welcome to the sixth episode in this season where we are understanding more detail of the Product Teams Report, which has just come out. And as you will well be aware now for listeners of this season, we’re talking to people from Cogent, which is the first time we’ve been doing that across the three seasons of the podcast. This is the last episode in the season. And my name is Adam Murray, one of the principals here. And in this episode, I’m talking with Bec Covington, who’s our fairly new still head of people here at Cogent. Very exciting also to have Bec here. And Matt Shanks, who’s one of the managing principals at Cogent with a focus on design and strategy. And today we’re talking about the future of distributed work. So, yeah. Welcome to you both. Great to have you both here. How are you?

Bec Covington: Thanks, Adam.

Matt Shanks: Very well. Thanks, Adam.

Adam Murray: Awesome. Good to hear.

Matt Shanks: Very excited.

Adam Murray: Very excited. Yeah, I’m excited too. Matt, I’ve got a question for you to get us started. Have you got an amazing experience of distributed work that you can talk to us about or some perspective or time recently where it’s just been, this is awesome and this is the future?

Matt Shanks: Yeah. I run a side business as a picture book illustrator as well. So, in the last couple of years, I think what I’ve realized is the time that I’ve saved in commuting has been able to be channeled into this other stuff for me and I think that gave me this taste of what a utopia that exists after we’re back from lockdowns and can have freedom of movement again, which is just really like full autonomy and control over your time. If you’re the sort of person who gets up in the morning and needs to do some work or can work late at night, it’s much more temporarily inclusive, I guess, is the phrase for that. And so, that’s what I’m really looking forward to unlocking in the next year or so at Cogent is, how do we coexist in a world where we do have freedom of movement as well as being able to work from home or work from somewhere that isn’t in the same location as everybody else?

Adam Murray: Yeah. I love that term, temporal inclusivity. It’s probably something that we haven’t had for a very long time. And as we know, people have different rhythms and prefer mornings or afternoons and maybe some of us are very unaware of that. So that’ll be an interesting thing for people and organizations to explore as well, I think. How does each person, what are their preferences and how can they be enabled? But yeah, welcome Matt, good to have you. Bec, I think you’ve got a bit of a personal story about what distributed work has enabled for you too. Can you share a bit about that?

Bec Covington: Yeah, I have. And I have to say, I completely agree with Matt, the flexibility to choose my work hours. It’s something I’ve actually always had and I’ve never been very good at the 9:00 to 5:00. So this is just making that even easier for me to choose those hours. But, my partner and I were pretty keen for a long time to move off grid and live a pretty sustainable life. But obviously work has in the past forced us to remain in close to the CBD and distributed working and all the things have happened over the last couple of years have given us the opportunity to fulfill that dream. So we are living off grid now in Castlemaine and it’s just brilliant and best thing we’ve ever done. So it’s been a bit of a blessing for us.

Adam Murray: And was it the pandemic that enabled that? Was this something that you were able to do before then?

Bec Covington: Yeah, I’ve been fortunate that I’ve always worked in pretty flexible working environment. So, it’s something that I probably could have done a while ago, but certainly for my partner, it was a little bit harder, both in tech, but I think what it did is it gave us the confidence to know that we would be able to find work that allowed us to both be flexible. And there was a bit of a guarantee there that that was going to be okay. It was a bit too much uncertainty in the past that maybe it wouldn’t work out. So we’ve got a bit more certainty in that space now, which is nice.

Adam Murray: Very good. Welcome to you too.

Bec Covington: Thank you.

Adam Murray: I think one of the important things for us to do here is just get really clear on our terms and our definitions, because there’s probably a lot of new terminology here. And if we can do that, perhaps we can have a better conversation as a community about this stuff. And so Matt, originally at Cogent, I think we’re starting to talk about remote work and maybe that’s a term that a lot of people still use and are familiar with. And as per the topic of this podcast was switched to this notion of distributed work, can you talk about the difference between those two things and maybe some other definitions that people use and why at Cogent, we’ve chosen distributed work?

Matt Shanks: Yeah. So I think there’s a couple of ways to think about it. Prepandemic, Cogent was primarily a Melbourne based company and so we had a head office in Melbourne and people would commute to Melbourne and we all lived within a commutable distance to Melbourne to do our work. And at one point, there was a person who needed to, for family reasons, move up to Queensland. And because that person was one person out of 50 or something at the time, this idea of remoteness came about at Cogent. So the problem with remoteness is it implies that there’s a place that isn’t remote. And so, once you have remoteness, there’s an otherness that happens to the person who is remote or the one or two people who are remote. And so when the pandemic happens and suddenly we’re all remote, where are we remote from anymore?

So, what is home base? And so if we think about now, this idea that people can do work on a project when they’re not in the same physical location, what that really means to us is this sense of we’re all distributed from on another. So, there’s an inclusivity that comes with that, I think, in that whether you live within a commutable distance to the Melbourne office now or not, we’re still all in the same boat. We’re still talking to each other via video calls mostly, we’re still collaborating over documents on the cloud. And so, we adopted this term distributed to make sure that people felt as though we were all equal in that. And we’re all solving the same problems as we wung our way into the pandemic.

Adam Murray: Yeah. I think it’s such an interesting shift even that simple term and the shift that it creates in people’s mind as well. And I know you’ve talked about a set code and podcast in the past Matt, as well about what the office is for anyway, and the history of the office and that kind of thing. And maybe we won’t get into the detail of that, but it’s a really cool question about what is the office going to be for now? And I’m excited about what might evolve and emerge over the next little while and how we might reinvent that space. Bec, have you got thoughts on these terms as well and the definitions that were in the terms that are popping up maybe more broadly than distributed?

Bec Covington: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, agree, the distributed term feels more inclusive of everyone. The other term that has popped up and I’ve had a lot of experience with over the last few months, particularly in my previous role before I started at Cogent with async, or asynchronous. And it’s interesting because, I think in the tech space, we know that word pretty well. And, it’s a pretty big part of our vernacular, but I realize working in a less techy environment for a few months, how much that blew people’s minds when I spoke about async and just the flick of the switch of thinking differently about how we communicate.

And I think that’s just going to be so important for good distributed work, is this notion of asynchronicity and the lag in time that comes with that, and not necessarily getting responses straight away, but also the inclusivity that comes with that as well. It was something that I was fortunate enough to experience for a lot of years in my previous role in another tech company that did flexibility really, really well. And I remember coming in there and not understanding it either in this new term of async and I think async needs to be part of everyone’s vernacular as we move to distributed work.

Matt Shanks: Yeah. And I think there’s some subtlety in the async thing too, because a lot of our tools like you look at say, interfaces like Slack, well our chat interfaces and so, the interfaces that give you the feeling that there’s a synchronicity there, but when you’re writing stuff down, there is definitely a time distance. So we personally have had to learn rules about, how do you take this interface that is geared towards this idea of maybe a text version of a phone conversation or something where everybody is just sitting at the computer all the time talking to going, maybe I Slacked someone something, and now I’ve gone to take the dog for a walk so I’m just gone for 20 minutes. How do you broadcast your attention in that world? So, it’s mapping the behaviors and the tools that I think is this really interesting and probably difficult space for some businesses to be operating in.

Bec Covington: Yeah. It’s interesting if I think about the experience of how with async and particularly since we’ve all moved distributed through the pandemic, the idea and the need for written communications really interesting. And I think there’s some really good pros with that, but also it brings with it a lot of challenges for inclusivity of people who maybe don’t necessarily have English as a first language in Australia. So the written communication piece with async becomes really big. And, I definitely highly recommend, there’s a book called Digital Body Language, that just happened to get launched at about the same time the pandemic. I don’t think it was intended, but yet it’s got some really beautiful stuff in there to help with the async communication.

Adam Murray: Is there, can you give us one little insight into something that book [crosstalk] attention…

Bec Covington: It’s a really good question. It’s been a couple of months since I’ve read it. It was really interesting thinking about digital natives versus digital, so the older generation and how they’re adapting to digital communication versus those of us who potentially have had it in our lives for most of our lives. So there was, so some good keys in there around how we communicate in a written way differently and how that might bug each other and how we need to learn to adapt.

Adam Murray: It seems like it’s things we can learn anyway, that’s the encouraging thing perhaps for all us. Let’s reflect on some of the things that emerge from this survey and are outlined in the report as well. I think one of the interesting things for me was that, in this distributed working way, teams are starting to feel like they are more productive. Interestingly, the leaders of those teams felt like perhaps their teams were less productive or that was the perception they were having anyway. Now, do you have any ideas or theories about where this discrepancy might be coming from?

Matt Shanks: Yeah. From our experience at Cogent, I think one thing that we’ve benefited from a lot as a consultancy over the years is just our value in transparency. And so, the first thing any consultant does when we walk into a place is we put our workings up on the wall for everybody to see, because we value the feedback as quickly as possible. And so, whether that’s a roadmap, whether that is a strategy that we’re doing, back in the day we would post that up all over the office. We’ve adapted now to making digital places for those things to exist.

And so I suspect that if you didn’t have that core value of transparency heading into the pandemic, and you relied on these incidental, walking through the office moments as a leader to keep up to date with what’s going on, you’re probably going to feel a little bit out of the loop, even though the team working on the thing all the time, have their ways of working and their processes is down pat, because they’re natively digital in their tooling. So I suspect there’s something around that idea of like, where do I find an update? How do I get this update from a team that’s probably making leaders or managers feel a little bit more out of the loop than say the team working towards shipping the feature this week or something?

Adam Murray: Yeah. That’s interesting Matt, because, I think leaders are perhaps in a moment of wondering, well, what is my role now anyway? How do I lead when I can’t walk over to people? Or I can’t feel the mood of a space and then maybe this is starting to resolve a bit now, but there might be a feeling of what does leading mean now anyway, and that idea of setting the tone with transparency is an interesting one. Bec, do you have thoughts about that around transparency and alignment and, that kind of thing, and how leaders can start to exemplify that or perhaps even learn from their teams and start to see that across the organization?

Bec Covington: Totally. I think you’ve summed that up, Adam, just in your ponderings there actually. If it’s one thing I’ve definitely experienced over the last couple of years, it’s the shift that leaders have to make in terms of how they communicate with their teams, and the intentionality of communication that has become so much more important. You can’t do things off the cuff, as easy as you used to be able to. You can’t recognize people in the moment as easy as you used to be able to, you can’t give them extra clarity, as easy as you used to be able to, you have to be intentional about these things. And for that, you have to be more clear.

You have to have more clarity about direction, about goals, about outcomes. You have to be more explicit. You can’t get away with the fact that I think potentially in the past, some of us have been able to get away with just by wrangling things over time and slowly shaping. It just doesn’t happen. Because, you have a conversation with somebody and you have to be confident that, that person can walk away from that conversation and absolutely be sure that for the next day, week, whenever it is that you get to catch up with them again, that they know that they’ve the confident that they’re working on the right things and they’re working towards the right things and that their work has meaning. And I think that’s a huge shift there for leaders to think about clarity as a big piece of an intentionality of communication.

Matt Shanks: Yeah. And I think just to add to that Bec, I think, the one way to get to that clarity, which distributed working really helps with is writing things down. The one way to clear your own thinking is by just writing down sentences and you realize, I certainly have, personally over the last year or so found the act of writing very clarifying for my own thoughts. And then actually helping me set up the teams that I lead for success as well is by just writing things down. Even if I speak those outcomes to them, the act of writing has really helped me do that for myself. That’s been this interesting growth opportunity.

Adam Murray: I wonder if there’s a, to flip this insight the other way, maybe there’s something here for teams as well. Maybe they don’t realize that they feel more productive, but their leaders aren’t feeling like they are more productive and that, how may teams better communicate that. Maybe they’re doing really well internally, but their external communication to the broader organization, maybe that needs a little bit of attention as well, or the way they’re representing their progress. I don’t know about that but, what do you think about that?

Matt Shanks: There’s certainly something about the sharing and awareness part, I think, that is interesting there. I think it’s very easy, when you are in the wades doing the work, shipping feature by feature weekly kind of thing, I think it’s very easy and it feels quite nice to get into the flow of that because, in a world where you have your own attention and your own space and you can work comfortably, it’s very easy to just go, “Oh, I’m actually enjoying this and you just keep going.” And so, there’s something I suppose, in training yourself in that awareness to go on and go, “Hey, I’ve been going at this for a week or a couple of days, who should I tell about this actually? Should anybody else care right now? And how might I tell them that? And what’s their way of working?” So again, and it comes back to that thing that Bec said, I think, is the intentionality behind some of these things that we probably got for free back in the day when we were all co-located.

Bec Covington: Yeah. And I’m thinking back to what Matt said at the start about being a consultant and the transparency and that when you walk into a new project, the first thing you do is make sure that everything’s really open and transparent for people to see where you’re at with your work. And, absolutely. The intentionality for teams to reshare in an asynchronous way is, and, I can imagine leaders being really grateful for that as well, that you’re not asking them to fill their diary with more meetings, but actually they’ve just got a space that they know and are confident that they can come back to whenever they want, and check in to see, what the updates are asynchronously is, I can imagine would place a lot of trust in teams from leaders as well. So it’s definitely two way.

Adam Murray: Switch topics a little bit. One of the things that I’ve noticed a lot of conversation about over the past year and a bit or almost two years is around onboarding of staff and, I’ve onboarded. As consultants, I think we’ve probably had many, many onboarding experiences at tens and tens of organizations. And, I’ve noticed a dramatic change in that over the years that I’ve been working. And it’s been accelerated over the past two years but, Bec, this is one of the areas I know you are super passionate about and probably were even before the pandemic but, how much more important is it now than it was?

Bec Covington: Yeah. Probably a little bit too passionate about and probably get up on my soapbox if I’m not careful. But, we can’t get away with the serendipity of things coming to people in the office and overhearing conversations like they might have in the asked or quickly turning to the person next to them asking a question when they’re new to an organization that we’ve relied on so heavily. And I just think, generally organizations don’t put enough effort into onboarding and, I think sometimes actually there’s probably, there’s something. Onboarding is not just the first week.

It’s not just the first two weeks. Onboarding is the first six to 12 months. You think about a new role. It takes a long time to feel settled. And then you amplify that when you put someone behind a screen in their home office and that they don’t get that connection. So I think that, again, the intentionality of how we onboard, how we provide information over a longer period of time for people. And I think there’s, a few key areas in terms of onboarding that are really important and obviously connection becomes even more important when you’re remote or distributed. You have to be more intentional about at how you connect people to the right people, both socially and from a business perspective.

Again, that transparency, how do they get context around the business? How do they understand, know what the goals and objectives of the business are? What are we working towards? How do I find all the information I need to find in a really accessible way that doesn’t necessarily rely on me asking people questions? What’s the culture? How do I make sure that I don’t make any [inaudible]? We know every business works differently. So how do I know these things when I’m behind a computer screen and I’m not able to be, truly show my whole self and connect with people really easily?

How do I feel confident in my role? There’s that clarity piece again. So what am I working towards? What are my goals? What are the things I need to make sure that I’m doing on a daily, weekly, monthly basis? And then, I think personal growth as well. I think we, maybe steer away from that for a little while with new folks, but I actually think it’s a good conversation to have pretty early on around growth and development. So, culture, business context, confidence in their role, connection, and growth. I think we have to find a way to make that more intentional over those first six months, because we know that, that’s where we lose people.

Matt Shanks: Yeah. I think what happens is, there’s a bunch of unspoken cultural laws that exist in every organization. And they’re different for every organization. So, that idea of I walk into the office on day one and I see a fridge full of food. Is this food I’m allowed to eat or is it food that other people have brought? Is there a shelf here that I can do this stuff? So in the physical space, you have these interesting implicit cultural norms that exist. And I think what’s interesting when you are thinking about distributed is, what are the cultural norms actually, when you are just in your house or in an office space somewhere else? What are the rules around broadcasting my attention on Slack? Do you use Slack statuses? Am I expected to be here exactly at nine o’clock logging in saying hi to people? Is that how my manager is checking on me that I’m working? What are those things?

And I think onboarding now, especially when you’re doing it in a remote or distributed context, it’s about being very specific with that stuff actually, you can’t just go, “Oh, well, I assume everybody’s just going to rock up at nine o’clock because that’s what we do as a general work culture in Australia or something.” And it’s interesting because once you start thinking about those things, you start to go, “Well, maybe that rule doesn’t need to be that way actually. And maybe our people operate in this way in a different sense. And so you can start to use, once you start to critically think about the stuff that you always took to just be true because they’re an assumption, you can and start to really have a really positive effect on the people that you’re working with and the culture you’re building in a distributed context.

Adam Murray: Earlier, I touched on this idea when you were talking Matt about, what’s the office going to be for anyway. And, maybe we can just spend a little bit of time imagining that and planning some seeds in people’s mind and reflecting on how can people create an awesome space when they are working in a distributed, maybe solo mode. And what some shelling points or some congregating points might look like, what might the office before over the coming years? Who’s got, which of you have some thoughts that you’d like to share on that?

Matt Shanks: I’ve been thinking about this quite a lot. And I think when the pandemic kicked off here, 2020, we did nine months without seeing anybody in a physical space at all. And, then we had a moment, luckily in Australia where we were able to gather again and we’re like, “Oh, awesome, let’s go back into the office and see if we can do this idea of this hybrid thing.” And what I found after having not seen anybody for nine months is, you go into the office and you see people you haven’t seen for nine months. And all you do is you talk and you drink coffee and you catch up, how’s the last nine months for you been? It is a highly, highly social thing and basically no work happened. And so, I was like, “Oh, that’s an interesting insight.”

And I think what it made me think about was, if you are seeing somebody every day, the scale of updates every day become pretty small, like, “Hey, I saw you yesterday and you told me you were well. I saw you the next day you told me you were well.” And so you can start to do work because you’re not going, “How was the last nine months for you?” So I think if distributed working starts to take hold a little bit, which it certainly is at Cogent, this idea that the office becomes a social gathering place or something for larger scale groups like a central meeting point where work doesn’t happen actually anymore. And it’s about building social connection and catching up with people. So you can then go off for three or four months at a time and do very task oriented work at home and not try and bridge this gap of like, “Ah, do you want to do a Zoom coffee thing?” Which everybody gets tired of really quickly.

So, I think there’s an opportunity for that. I think the other thing that’s interesting about the office as a meeting place though, is that I live 10 minutes away from say, two employees, do we both need to commute an hour into the office so we can have a coffee together? Maybe what we should be doing is supporting local businesses and going for breaki at a cafe that’s 10 minutes between us. So we’re both traveling five to 10 minutes to meet. We have that social connection and then we part to go work in our focused, very comfortable home environments again or something like that. So that sense of distributed social connection starts to emerge as a possibility, I think, which is pretty exciting.

Bec Covington: Yeah. I completely agree, Matt, completely agree. The office space has to be about connection and, you and I having that conversation just before. It was funny enough that we did come together last week and we realized how annoying post-it notes are and that we wanted mural back. You suddenly realize it’s actually easier, but the distributed social connection is just as important. In fact, we’ve got fair few of us up in the Northern outer suburbs and regional areas of Victoria and we come together once a month because we’re all close by. So yeah, I think we need to rethink how we connect as well. And I completely support supporting local businesses too. I think that’s brilliant.

But yeah, I think that the office needs to a change. And the experience I had actually in a previous workplace when we did do the thing where we opened up and we all went back into the office and then next thing we knew, every one of us was sitting in front of our laptops on zoom, back on zoom, talking to people at home. And it was, you just have to ask yourself, is this the best way?

Adam Murray: The other thing that excites me too about that these spaces for connection is, two things. Having spaces that are designed to inspire us, and maybe having different places that are enabling a different kind of inspiration, like having an offsite in the bush, for example, creates a very different vibe and a very different mindset, maybe having spaces full of art in the city. And the second part of that is, maybe it’s a bit odd that we do try and connect only with people from our own organization and co-working spaces are a great example of where people connect with other people from all types of organizations and if we were intentional about that, even in our bigger organizations to come together quite deliberately perhaps with other organizations, but also in a random way and what sparks of innovation or creativity, or just serendipity that might enable. I see. Yeah.

Bec Covington: Oh, you’ve just got me thinking about ideas for my property. Maybe things [inaudible] like a tiny home offsite space for bush retreats.

Matt Shanks: Yeah. It’s funny listening to Adam speaking and then you again, Bec. I think what’s interesting is that we know… We did a bunch of research into the neurology, what happens to our neurology when we work from home and the serendipity that you miss out on by having the same routine every day, every day. And I think there’s this weird moment in time where a bunch of large corporations decided that they would make their offices really playful and funky, they’re put in a slide or a running track or these weird things. The problem is, that you do that once. So you spend a couple of million bucks, you fit out your office to be this super funky space, and within a week that’s way of just people work and you’re going to go, “Oh yeah, there’s a slide, and there’s a thing, there’s a thing.”

So what’s always been interesting to me and this sense of interior design and the role that environments play is how do you cheaply and consistently keep the novelty up? Because it’s the novelty that changes the way our brains operate and creates different neural pathways. So that sense of even just walking around the block, a different way than you did before or something like that, what are those small ways that we can start to create genuine novelty in every day? Not just, let’s do a multimillion dollar fit out for our office once. And then it just becomes the office again with the colorful slide in the corner kind of thing.

Adam Murray: Awesome. I love this. I hope this is planting some really fascinating seed in people’s mind and I’m excited about the next couple of years is going to hold for the office. I’ve got a final question for both of you Bec, one of the things I’m often reflecting on at the end of these podcast is the different audiences that we might have and people that been listening to this thinking, ah, we’re so far away from good here. And, for those people that might be in that frame or that context, what are some safe experiments or a safe experiment that they might be able to try to move them in this direction?

Bec Covington: Yeah, that’s a really good question. I think I need to come back to what I started with around asynchronous. I think it’s, having experienced an environment that was very much an in-office environment, flexible, but in-office and seeing the difference, even just talking about asynchronous communication and written communication made, I think that’s where we should be starting it’s that’s probably going to be the biggest foundational shift for people, is how we communicate.

Matt Shanks: Yeah. I think one thing that changed it for Cogent was, just declaring how we use notifications, just writing it down and saying, “You know what? It’s the receiver’s responsibility for managing their notifications.” And as soon as you declare that, everyone’s on the same page. It’s not like, “Oh, am I supposed to answer DMs here? And I don’t understand what’s going on.” So even just a small cultural declaration like that, I think can also make a big difference.

Adam Murray: Matt, from the other point of view for people or organizations that are listening to this and saying yeah, we’re doing this quite well, what’s something that they can do to take it to the next level?

Matt Shanks: It’s an interesting one. I think there’s probably something around understanding at a more granular level. The level of autonomy people are feeling in their day, I think there’s this is like utopia where people can work when they want, how they want, whenever they want and collaborate with people in ways that suit them. And you end up in this world where work doesn’t feel like work anymore. It feels like you’re hanging out together with a group of people achieving some sort of outcome, which might end up being the purpose of the reason the company exists. So, giving people that kind of goal to go like, “Are you working in the best possible way for you?” And then also watching that effect how quickly a company can and achieve its purpose, I think is a really interesting goal to shoot for.

Bec Covington: Yeah. There’s something in there about that autonomy isn’t there and self awareness around what actually does work for you. And that it’s a space that so many of us haven’t had to really think about. I know 3:00 PM in the afternoon, I am useless. Useless. And so, it’s much better for me to take a bit of a break, maybe go and do some exercise or something and then come back to work and work at seven o’clock at night because that just works better for me, but it takes some time to really understand how you blend work and life, how you can do your best, most autonomous work, I guess. Don’t know if that makes sense but, yeah. There’s some self reflection there to be done, I think for us independent… I think we have to take ownership ourselves of what works best for us is a lot more self reflection there.

Adam Murray: So much good stuff in here. And I would love to do a whole nother episode on this, but thank you both for being part of it and thank you all for listening as well. If you’d like to learn more about how teams across Australia and New Zealand are doing things, you can download the free 50 page report by visiting cogent.co/podcastreport. Bye for now.